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Town of Work Session Minutes Members
Present: Barbara
Annis, Dan Watts, David Hartman, Rick Davies, Ed Mical Members Excused:
Paul Violette Members Absent:
Hank Duhamel Alternates Present:
Harold French (Voting for Mr. Violette) Alternates Excused:
Robert Ricard Alternates Absent:
None Members Left Early:
Dan Watts Presiding:
Barbara Annis Recording:
Jean Lightfoot Open Meeting at Roll Call Ms. Annis opened the meeting at 1. DRIVEWAYS DISCUSSION Ms. Annis introduced Dick Brown and
said that he had been asking for a change in the driveway regulations
since 2005. Mr. Mical
explained that there were two items handed to the Board members, a
letter from the Fire Chief to the Board of Selectmen dated
“Oct. 3. 2005
“Board of Selectmen
“
“Warner, NH 03278
“Subject: Proposed Driveway Requirements
“Gentlemen:
“As Chief of the Warner Fire Department, I am becoming
increasingly concerned with the types and conditions of driveways that I
see being constructed about town as we continue to grow.
Primarily, I see many driveways being constructed that will not
allow for full access to emergency apparatus, especially during the
winter months.
“You will find attached proposed changes to the town’s
current driveway requirements that I feel are necessary.
I ask for your support in presenting them to the appropriate town
boards.
“By implementing these changes:
“2: It may help
limit the town’s liability should the fire department not be able to
reach an establishment where these driveway requirements are not in
place. Currently, the Town
issues a driveway permit, a building permit and then charges property
taxes, a portion of which pays for fire protection and
“3: If these
changes are implemented we should be able to limit the number of
vehicles that will need all-wheel drive.
Otherwise, if we continue to allow driveways to be built as they
are presently, the fire department’s future apparatus will all need to
be four wheel or all-wheel drive. At
current prices this adds $20,000-$40,000 to the cost of each vehicle.
“I hope you will look favorably upon this request and should
you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.
“Sincerely,
“Richard D. Brown, Chief /s/
“Warner Fire Department” “Proposed
Driveway Requirements
“A. Driveways shall
not exceed one thousand five hundred (1500) feet in travel distance from
the intersection with the town maintained road.
“B. Driveways shall
be a minimum of ten (
“C. No driveway
shall exceed a ten percent (10%) maximum grade.
“D. Driveways shall
not terminate more than fifty (50) feet from the primary occupancy.
“E. Driveways over
eight hundred (800) feet in length shall have at least one turnout,
placed one half the length of the drive, to accommodate the need for
emergency apparatus to pass each other.
The turnout shall have a minimum width of twenty (20) feet and a
minimum length of forty (40) feet.
“F. Suitable parking
area shall be provided for emergency apparatus at the termination of the
driveway. This area shall be
a minimum of eight hundred (800) square feet with the shortest side
being not less than twenty (20) feet.
“G. All driveways
shall be constructed of sufficient strength and materials, including
bridges and culverts, as to support vehicles with a gross vehicle weight
of at least twenty five (25) tons (50,000 lbs.).
Driveway construction plans must be submitted to and approved by
the Director of Public Works prior to commencing work.
“H. No more than two
(2) houses shall be placed on a single driveway.
“I. Changes in
direction of any driveway shall have a minimum of sixty (60) feet.” Ms. Annis said that she understood what
Chief Brown’s concerns are. She
said that the majority of the Board has not heard the presentation, so
she asked him to summarize his concerns.
Chief Brown said that the April 2005 letter explains it.
He said that the biggest problem right now is the steepness and
narrowness of the driveways, resulting in there being no place for the
vehicles to pass each other even if they can get up the driveway.
He said another problem is that when they get to the house
because the driveways are not kept large enough or maintained enough the
ambulance is unable to turn around.
He said that when there is a 1500 or 2000 foot driveway, and it
isn’t wide enough for the ambulance, you don’t want to be carrying
someone who is ill or injured all the way down that driveway to the
street. He said that the
trucks get larger as time goes on because the regulations increasingly
require more equipment to be carried on the vehicles.
He said that he would propose that if there could be regulations,
each set of plans could be reviewed and have them add or subtract what
is necessary. He said that
by law, they are not liable for property that they cannot get to, but
they will try to do it and in the process may end up smashing up a
$500,000 piece of equipment, let alone the potential harm to the people
on the trucks. He said it
would help if people would maintain their driveways by plowing them and
sanding them, noting that in the winter there are many that you can’t
even walk up because of the ice and snow.
Mr. French said he thinks that falls onto the personal
responsibility of the homeowner. Chief
Brown said he agreed, but if the house is burning and people are
trapped, then, they will try to get to it, even if it requires calling
the Town sanding truck to sand the driveway, but that will create a
delay in getting there. Mr.
French said that he thinks that people with steep driveways should keep
them sanded not only for emergency access but for their own safety.
Chief Brown agreed. He said the main concern is the length
of the driveway, the width allowing two vehicles to pass, if necessary,
and the slope. He said that
at about every 800 feet, there should be a wide spot that is 20 feet
wide and 40 feet long so that two vehicles can pass each other.
He said that other towns have this requirement.
Ms. Annis said that one thing that was
discussed with the Building Inspector was that the Allan Brown’s
responsibility goes as far as the culvert in the driveway and is not
responsible for the driveway itself.
She asked who is going to determine the regulations.
She wondered if signing the Building Permit, the owner agrees
that this is not going to be any steeper than, say, the 10% or when Mr.
Brown gives the Driveway Permit, it could be incorporated in that.
Chief Brown said that whoever draws the plans for the driveway
can put on the drawings what the percentage of grade is.
Ms. Annis said they don’t do that now in a Building Permit.
Chief Brown said if it were required then they would have to.
Allan Brown said that it could be judged by the Town.
Mr. French asked Mr. Brown if there are any public roads in town
that exceed 10% grade. Mr.
Brown said yes. Mr. French
said that is the problem with the town – it is a hilly town.
He said if we limit the driveway grade to 10%, then 90% of the
area in which can be built will be cut out.
Mr. Brown said that you could still do a lot of the driveways,
but it would cost more because you would have to do switchbacks.
There was a short discussion about various current driveways that
are very steep. Ms. Annis
asked what the grade is of Chief Brown said that he would like to
have something written at least to make people aware of the problem.
He said he did not think that it should be said that they may not
create the steep, narrow driveways.
Mr. Watts suggested that there be written a recommendation,
saying these are the specifications that the town would like for safety
reasons. Mr. French
suggested adding the wording of keeping the driveways plowed, wide
enough and sanded. Chief
Brown suggested making a strong recommendation about these issues and
those who choose to do it, great; and, if you get the one or two who
absolutely refuse, then it will be known that the fire equipment cannot
get to the house. Mr. Davies
asked if it would be possible to guarantee service if it were 10% or
less. It was agreed that
nothing could be guaranteed. Mr.
French asked about the width requirement.
Chief Brown said his request is that a turnout be a minimum width
of 20 feet and 40 feet long if the driveway is over 800 feet.
He said if it is over 1600 feet, then there would have to be two
turnouts. He said he is not
opposed to adding to the 1500 foot travel distance, so long as they do
the width and the turnouts properly.
Ms. Annis asked if one way to approach this is that we recommend
that these be part of the building permit application and ask that they
sign it, acknowledging that they’ve seen it. Mr. French asked what D. means when it
says that driveways shall not terminate more than 50 feet from the
primary occupancy. Chief
Brown said that means the driveway isn’t ended and then you have to
walk to the house more than 50 feet from where the car is parked.
Mr. Davies asked if there is a 2000 foot length, is it possible
to keep the hoses from freezing in the winter.
Chief Brown said yes, as long as there is a water supply to keep
the water flowing. He said
if it is below zero and they run out of water, the hoses will freeze in
about 10 minutes. Mr. French asked if it would be helpful
for the fire department to have four-wheel drive vehicles.
Chief Brown said that they have one now that has full
capabilities and is a good all-around piece to get started with.
He said that, unless the fire was totally out of control, they
could put out most fires with that.
He added that they have chains on all of the other vehicles and
those usually work pretty well. He
said that the biggest problem is ice, but as far as the average
snowstorm goes, there is no problem with the vehicles that they
currently have. He said
that, if it’s necessary, Mr. Brown listens and is on the road sanding
if needed. Mr. Davies asked about the turnaround
for driveways. Chief Brown
said the 20 feet by 40 feet includes the 12 feet for the width.
He said it’s not a turnaround – it would allow one vehicle to
pull over and let another one go by.
Ms. Annis asked Chief Brown if he agreed that the 10% grade must
be at least 25 feet from the town right-of-way.
Chief Brown replied it should be at least 30 feet.
He said that the first 30 feet off the right-of-way should be no
more than a 2-3% grade. Mr.
Brown said he had no objections to this.
Ms. Annis said that the Planning Board did not design the
Building Permit Application and she asked if the Planning Board has the
right to insert something into the Building Permit Application or are
the Selectmen or the Building Inspector asked to insert it.
Mr. Hartman said if it is simply a
suggestion that people do the right thing, it could be noted with an
asterisk someplace. However,
he said, what teeth would it have that way?
Chief Brown said that it could be made as a suggestion and people
might ask why and it could then be explained to them.
Mr. Hartman said that Mr. Brown has issued driveway permits to
people who have made foolish decisions on driveways.
He asked Mr. Brown if he discusses those decisions with them.
Mr. Brown said yes, all the time.
Mr. Hartman said then that the suggestion is already taking
place. Mr. Brown said that
it is known that the good lots are nearly all gone so we now know that
we are going to be issuing permits for lots that have very steep access.
He said he explains that it will be difficult in the winter time
and it will wash out and the owner will be responsible.
He said the most frustrating part is that the person who gets the
original permit can deal with the problems, but then the property is
sold and the next person cannot deal with it.
Mr. Hartman said that his point is that we already warn people
when the driveway permit is issued.
Mr. Watts said there’s a difference between warning verbally
and giving them something they can take home and read.
Ms. Annis added that they should sign for it.
Mr. Hartman asked what that is going to do since it is not a
regulation. Mr. Watts said
it’s educational. Mr.
French said that we don’t want to regulate it.
Ms. Annis said that Chief Brown is suggesting that we try this
way first. Mr. Hartman said
we already do that, noting that there is no signed paper, but the
warning is made. Mr. French
said we’re also telling people that if you do have it steeper, keep it
plowed back, keep it salted and sanded and these are the reasons why.
Mr. Watts said that in a verbal discussion, you’re not going to
get out the 800 feet, the 20 foot passing, etc.
He said you’re just communicating that it’s way too steep.
He said that putting it in writing gives them something to look
at and to go over. Mr.
French said he thought there are certain things that could be added,
like the turnouts every 800 feet. He
said that is not a huge additional cost to the driveway and it could be
mandatory. Mr. Hartman said
when you use the word mandatory, it means regulation or ordinance; it
does not mean advice. Mr.
French said that it might do to pull out some of these to add to the
regulations, but the majority of them would be fine as a suggestion.
Ms. Annis said it would turn into a completely separate document
called Driveway Regulations. Mr.
Brown asked why they could not be added to the Driveway Permit.
He said that it is the Planning Board that has the authority to
issue Driveway Permits. He
said he issues them for the Planning Board, but they have the regulating
authority on Driveway Permits. He
said that he has added a statement to the Driveway Permit that it is
totally the responsibility of the owner to maintain the driveway, not
that of the Town. He said
that the Planning Board could put in the Driveway Permit that if the
driveway exceeds 800 feet, there will be the turnout that has been
discussed. He said that he
now has people sign it when they get it, which is something he didn’t
used to do. Ms. Annis asked
for a copy of the Driveway Permit. Chief
Brown said that the grade limitation would be the biggest problem for
someone constructing a driveway. Mr.
Hartman said the question is whether we are talking about advice or an
additional regulation. He
said that the members seem to be unsure as to whether it should be a
regulation or advice. Mr.
Mical said that he is going to call the State Fire Marshal to see if
driveways are part of the State Building Code.
He said he thinks there may be something in the Life Safety Code
about driveways. Ms. Annis asked Chief Brown how things
are coming with the requirement that all buildings be sprinklered.
Chief Brown said the State is still working on that and it is not
definite. He said that some
individual towns have required it. Mr.
Hartman asked what that adds to the cost of the house.
Chief Brown said about $1.50 to $2.00 per square foot.
Mr. French said it could be more expensive than that.
There was a short discussion about different types of sprinkler
systems and their effectiveness. Ms.
Annis asked if there were any other questions.
Mr. Hartman asked where we go from here.
Ms. Annis said that she thought the Board should look at the
Driveway Permit Application and possibly incorporate it as a Driveway
Permit Regulation so it is completely separate.
Chief Brown added that they will also check the state
regulations. Mr. Hartman
said that he wanted to be sure that it is understood that there are two
ways of doing it, and if you regulate, then someone must do the
regulation. He said if it is
to be tied to a Building Permit Application, then it’s tied directly
to the Selectmen’s Office or the Building Inspector and new ways of
doing business would need to be initiated.
Ms. Annis said she thought that more information is needed before
we decide how to approach it. There
was a short discussion on how it might be regulated if it is decided to
regulate. Ms. Annis thanked Chief Brown and asked
Mr. Brown if he would wait because there was a conceptual consultation
scheduled for 2. CONCEPTUAL
CONSULTATION Neil and Katharine Nevins would like to
discuss the proposed community park to be established behind Main Street
BookEnds, Ms. Annis recognized Neil Nevins.
Mr. Nevins said that this plan has been thought about for awhile
and the inspiration is a picture they have at BookEnds which was given
to them by Charlie Brown when they first opened.
He said their intention is to maintain Chris Kessler reviewed the drawing of the
proposed site explaining the plans for the site.
He mentioned that they are working with Allan Brown on drainage
issues for the town. He said
that the plan is to expand the entrance on Ms. Annis asked where the propane tank is
that the library just added. She
asked if people would be walking closer to that tank with this plan.
There was a discussion about the tanks and it was noted that the
tank should be 50 feet from any other structure.
After review, it was determined that the people visiting the park
would not be coming near the propane tank.
Mr. Nevins discussed the importance of the mulberry tree and said
that it is protected as the largest white mulberry tree in the State, so
it will be a focal point for the park.
Ms. Annis asked about lighting.
Mr. Nevins said at this point the plan doesn’t involve any
lighting. He said that the
planned use is from dawn to dusk so there would be no need for lighting.
He added that after the stage is added, the lighting then would
be minimal; however, he said they are not planning that during this
phase. Ms. Annis asked what
is planned specifically for the first phase.
Mr. Nevins said the first phase is to concentrate on the front
section for the expanded parking to the patio and then clearing out the
back portion so it could be maintained because right now it is just
brush. Mr. Kessler referred
to the drainage that is possibly going to be created across the
property. Mr. Brown
explained what the town is thinking of for their drainage needs that
would go across the property. Mr.
Kessler agreed that if there is going to be digging on the property,
then it would make sense to coordinate with the town. Ms. Annis said she was trying to assist
Mr. Nevins by combining all the phases in one site plan review approval.
However, Mr. Nevins said they are not ready in the planning phase
or financially to proceed with the other phases.
He said that the second phase of building the stage would only
require a building permit because, in a sense, we are currently looking
at the whole plan and it all would be completed short of the back most
area and the landscaping. Ms.
Annis said that lighting would be part of that.
Mr. Nevins agreed. Mr.
Mical asked if they were planning to electrify the stage area.
Mr. Nevins said perhaps. Mr.
Mical said that if he is trying to put everything together, those are
the kinds of things that need to be addressed.
Ms. Annis said it may have to be done in phases.
Mr. Davies asked if Ms. Annis was expecting, for example, three
separate delineations on a drawing.
Ms. Annis said no, she was looking at the whole picture and
trying to see if it could all be combined into one application, and
consider the direction and brightness of the lighting, any lampposts
that might be necessary, etc. Mr.
Mical said that if it is all done at once, and even if it takes 3 or 4
years to complete it, at least it’s all in place so they can proceed
as approved. Mr. Davies
asked if they thought they would finish in 4 years.
Mr. Nevins said he thought within 4 or 5 years.
Ms. Annis said that if he is not covering the lighting with the
application now, he will have to return for that approval, as well.
Mr. Mical suggested putting everything together in one plan and
then if it is not completed, he could ask for an extension.
Ms. Annis said that normally with a site plan review, the
questions are what hours it will be open; will it be open on Sundays;
will there be concerts and how late will they be.
Mr. Nevins said those are all relevant, and agreed that it may
have to come in phases. He
said that the primary interest right now is to establish the parking lot
area which is much more visible from George Pellettieri said that what they
would like to do is get an approval of the overall concept.
He said that the bulk of the work will be site work and
landscaping, including the parking and the drainage.
He said the next phase would be structures and that would
incorporate the lighting question and active use.
He said there are a couple possibilities for structures that they
aren’t sure of yet. He
said they were planning on coming back to the Planning Board for the
structures. Ms. Annis said
that it is basically two phases. Mr.
Pellettieri said yes. Mr.
Davies said that there will possibly be two sets of drawings:
one now and one in a year or two or three.
Mr. Pellettieri said that any structures on the current drawing
are only proposed future structures.
He said that the site plan review requires completion of the
checklist which includes a lighting plan, a landscape plan, and many
other things. When most of
what is being proposed now is landscaping, he said that it doesn’t
make sense to develop the entire plan, especially when they don’t have
the money for it. Ms. Annis said this is strictly
conceptual and asked the Board members if they had any further questions
or needed any additional information for the Site Plan Review scheduled
for March 2nd. Mr.
Hartman said the drainage easement seems like a pretty concrete thing
that would need to be worked out in the first phase.
He said the discussion is to drain all the water coming from the
school property and the Town Hall and other buildings in the area down
into the parking lot or someplace in the area in trying to get the water
down towards the river. Mr.
Brown discussed the potential drainage area and how it would affect the
Nevins’ and surrounding properties.
Mr. Pellettieri asked if they should just request a waiver from
some of the items on the checklist.
Ms. Annis said yes and asked them to put it in writing.
Mr. French and Mr. Davies said they thought it would be a good
project for the town. Mr.
Nevins and his party departed. 3. DRIVEWAYS DISCUSSION
(Continued) Ms. Annis thanked Mr. Brown for
staying. Mr. Mical asked if
the letter dated Mr. Davies asked if there is a larger
radius for a cul-de-sac that would work to allow more driveways.
Mr. Brown said he would have to look at that.
He said that he has looked at Mr. Hartman asked if there were only
one lot allowed on a turnaround would it be all right.
Mr. Brown said yes, but added that what the developers have been
trying to do is get all their required road frontage off the turnaround
and that is what creates the problem.
Mr. Hartman asked where the lot frontage is on the hammerhead.
Mr. Brown said that usually the hammerhead is taken into a lot
and then the lot is entered on one side or the other.
He indicated on the drawing how the lots might be drawn.
There was a discussion about the Wagner subdivision that was
recently approved. Mr. Brown
said that that teardrop design was large enough to make it workable.
He said it is nothing but a circle road.
He referred to another area that actually made it a big circle
which was one way with trees in the middle.
He said that was no problem for the snow plows.
Ms. Annis asked why are there so many
options suggested. Mr. Brown
replied that the land options in Warner are so many that he wanted to
give many options so everyone has something that they can work with.
Mr. Davies commented that all three designs are almost identical,
but they are just twisted differently.
Mr. Brown agreed. Ms.
Annis said that Mr. Brown would like the various drawings marked or put
in writing in our Subdivision Regulations that no driveway shall be
closer to a cul-de-sac than 50 feet.
Mr. Mical added that unless the cul-de-sac exceeds a certain
diameter that Mr. Brown will communicate, it must be the 50 feet from
the cul-de-sac. Ms. Annis
asked if it would help if it were required to have a single lane and not
two lanes around the cul-de-sacs. Mr.
Brown said it’s better to put a 12-foot lane with a one-foot shoulder
on either side, instead of having 30 feet for two full lanes.
Mr. Mical said that if there are to be driveways off the
turnaround and it is to be part of the frontage for the lots, then the
turnaround has to be one way and larger in radius.
Mr. French added that other than that, a hammerhead must be used.
That was agreed to by several members. Mr. Davies asked Chief Brown if there
was any problem with the hammerhead for the fire trucks.
Chief Brown said no. Mr.
Brown said that it is a little more difficult for someone delivering
something with a tractor trailer, but they can do it.
Ms. Annis asked Mr. Brown to prepare
something and have it to the Board in two weeks.
Mr. Brown said he would try.
Mr. Davies said that if you are a developer and use a hammerhead
design, you gain about a half acre and wondered what the advantage to
the other designs. Mr.
French said they get more frontage off the other designs.
Mr. Brown said that they actually gain lots by doing it the other
way using the road frontage for lot lines.
Mr. Brown said he wanted to add
geotextiles to the road requirements and the 12-inch gravel layer to the
diagram for the road cross-section.
Mr. Davies said that the right gradation of the gravel needs to
be identified. Mr. Mical
said that they can re-work it. Ms.
Annis thanked Mr. Brown. There was no further business.
Mr. Hartman MOVED to adjourn.
Mr. French seconded. The
motion was PASSED unanimously. The
meeting was adjourned at
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