Zoning Board of Adjustment

Warner, NH

Meeting Minutes of August 13, 2008

 

Members Present:  Martha Thoits, Chair, Mike Holt, Janice Loz, and Alternates Rick Davies and Ted Young.  (Jean Lightfoot recording)  

Excused:  Vice Chair Dennis Barnard, Member Eric Rodgers  

Not present:  Alternate Gordon Nolen  

Ms. Thoits opened the meeting at 7:00 pm .  The roll call was taken.  Ms. Thoits said that Ted Young and Rick Davies will be voting in place of Dennis Barnard and Eric Rodgers.  

1.  CASE #05-08 SPECIAL EXCEPTION  

a.       Applicant:  Warner Aggregates, LLC, David Herrick, Owner

b.       Property Location:  Route 103 East, Warner, NH, Map 3, Lot 84-10A, OC-1 zoning district.

c.       Proposed Use: Construction Equipment and Supplies Sales 

d.   Special Exception to Zoning Article VIII, Section B.  Request Special Exception in order to sell construction equipment and supplies by auction 6 to 8 times a year lasting one day each.  

Ms. Thoits asked if the Board wished to discuss whether it should be a variance or a special exception before beginning with the application.  Mr. Davies said that the procedure is to accept the application, and if there is a question on whether the application should be for a variance or a special exception, then the Board should discuss it beforehand.  Ms. Thoits agreed, saying that if it really should be a variance, then the application for a special exception cannot be accepted.  She said that the question is whether it should really have been a variance request and she wanted the Board’s opinion on this issue.  She said if you look at Table 1 under Retail and Services/Uses, Number 6 says, “Establishment selling new or new and used automobiles and trucks, new automobile tires and other accessories, aircraft, boats, motorcycles and household trailers;” and it needs a variance for that district.  She said Number 16 is what she thinks some people thought would be for a special exception because it says, “Motor vehicle, machinery or other junkyard.”  She said that to her, the phrase, “or other junkyard” indicates that it is talking about motor vehicle and machinery junkyards.  She asked the board how they interpret the phrase, “or other junkyard.”  

Mr. Young said it seems that Mr. Herrick could give his presentation so the Board could understand exactly what he is proposing.  He said that by adding the other uses like sales of construction supplies, bark mulch, firewood, pipe, etc. sounds like he may want to have a full-time operation there with those items.  Mr. Holt said if he’s in OC-1, and you look at Number 16, then he would need a special exception; he said if you interpret it as Number 6, then he would need a variance.  Ms. Thoits said yes, and the determination is whether we see it as Number 6 or Number 16.  Mr. Davies said that Number 16 seems to be saying that it’s three types of junkyards.  Ms. Thoits said that Mr. Herrick is not calling it a junkyard.  Mr. Young agreed, but said that he wants to auction heavy equipment one day six to eight times a year.  He said that the auctions would probably not be in the winter, so there would probably be an auction a month.  He said that they are going to be hauling equipment in and out of there each month.  He said that a junkyard would be a permanent location of this material if it were in fact junk or other used machinery.  He said that given that, we don’t know until we hear his plan.  Ms. Thoits asked if he were interpreting it that if he stored the machinery there, then it would be a junkyard.  Mr. Young said yes, if there’s going to be machinery stored there, then he thinks it will be inevitable.  Ms. Thoits said that the point with Number 16 is that it doesn’t mention the sale of anything from this junkyard.  She said it just says, “Motor vehicle, machinery or other junkyard”; it doesn’t mention that things can be sold from the junkyard.  She said that Number 6 specifically says selling.  She said that is her interpretation.  She asked if the Board wanted to hear the case before it’s decided.  Mr. Young said yes, because it could make a difference in how it’s presented.  

Mr. Young MOVED to hear the case and see if it can be determined from that where it should come.  Mr. Holt seconded.  There was no further discussion.  The motion was PASSED unanimously.   

Ms. Thoits recognized David Herrick, the owner of Warner Aggregates, LLC.  He explained that the proposal is to permit auctions 6 to 8 times a year, depending on the economy.  He said there would not be more than one day of sales, but there would be equipment being brought in about a week prior to the auction and then about a week after the auction to allow the outfits that buy the equipment to move it out.  He said from that point, it will be a vacant site again.  Right now, he said, it’s his sand and gravel operation.  He said that he does not think it will be a continual equipment storage area because it’s a pit where they do their digging and screening operations.  He said it would be a hindrance to have the equipment there for very long.  He said that from other auction sites he’s seen, the equipment isn’t on site for much more than a week.  He said the construction materials, bark mulch, and pipe coincides more with the pit operation and he added it to this application because there was a question last year about whether or not he was permitted to sell bark mulch from the pit.  He said that they stopped selling bark mulch because of that and he said he wants to be permitted to sell it.  He said that the pipe goes along with the operations of the pit; contractors come in and if they need a culvert or a piece of sewer or drain pipe, if it’s on site, it’s more of a convenience for them.  He said it is not intended to have a massive pipe stockpile – it’s just 4 or 5 pieces of different sizes of pipe.  He said that firewood is seasonal and is something that would be available from springtime until fall.  He said most of the activity would be probably April to October or November.  The auction sales would stop in October or November, too.  He said that the equipment will be used, but it’s all operable.  He said it’s not supposed to be anything that’s not movable by itself.  He said that as far as a junkyard is concerned, he wants nothing to do with that.   

Michael Tierney, who was representing Warner Aggregates, said that a junkyard generally has three different purposes.  One is the junking of vehicles, taking apart and dismantling the vehicles that are no longer operable or no longer should be operable.  Second is the restoring of vehicles.  He said that generally a junkyard is also going to be in the repair business, repairing those vehicles that they purchase that are reparable so they can be put back on the road.  Third is the selling of parts that can be salvaged from its junking operation.  He said that any junking operation is going to be pulling the heavy metals, junking some of the unusable materials and then selling those parts that can be sold as used parts.  He said that the proposal is to have an auction of used heavy machinery and heavy machinery parts and accessories.  He said if you look at Number 6 which talks about the “establishment, selling new or new and used automobiles and trucks” and new automobile tires and other accessories, it is only talking about the sale of new parts.  He said it talks about the sale of used automobiles, but only the sale of new parts.  He said that Number 16, including the machinery and motor vehicle junkyard have to include the sale of used parts, whether it is for automobiles or for heavy machinery.  He said he thinks this is more in line with what is being proposed than the traditional used car sales or a dealership where you can buy your new car and new parts for the car.  He said he thinks it’s much closer to the auction of trying to sell the used parts but is not going to be the junking part of a junkyard.  He said it’s just going to be the sale of the used machinery and the sale of any accessory parts.   

Mr. Holt asked about the dismantling of heavy equipment.  Mr. Tierney said there would not be any dismantling as part of this operation.  Mr. Holt asked if they were planning on dismantling, breaking down, draining out the oil, etc. of the equipment.  Mr. Herrick said no.  Ms. Thoits asked if they only planned to have the heavy equipment on the site for a week or less.  Mr. Herrick replied for a week prior to the sale and a week after the sale.  

Mr. Young asked if the machinery was going to only come in on consignment or is it going to be machinery that Mr. Herrick has picked up.  Mr. Herrick said it could be some of his equipment, but it would belong to other people, primarily.  Mr. Young said that someone may call and take a piece of equipment into the auction and then it would be taken away after the auction either by the new owner or the original owner.  Mr. Herrick said yes.   

Mr. Davies asked what day the auction would typically be on.  Mr. Herrick said typically it would be either a Thursday or Friday, and sometimes on Tuesday.  He added that it all depends.  He said it would not be on a weekend, although perhaps on a Saturday, but not typically on a weekend.  Mr. Davies asked when the equipment would be brought in.  Mr. Herrick replied during the weekdays.   

Mr. Holt asked what volume of activity is envisioned.  He asked if they are thinking of a half a dozen pieces or 100 pieces . . . Mr. Herrick said it could be 100 pieces.  Mr. Holt asked if they would be of the size of D-7 or D-8 dozers.  Mr. Herrick said it could be some, but not a hundred.  It would be rubber-tired vehicles like loaders and excavators.  Mr. Holt noted that they have that kind of room on the lot.   

Mr. Davies asked if the sales of the construction supplies, bark mulch, firewood and pipe would be year-round.  Mr. Herrick said bark mulch is seasonal from April to November.  And, it would be the same with the firewood.  He said the pipe is seasonal because of the frozen ground conditions.  He said that nearly everything in the pit is from spring until fall.   

Mr. Young asked if it would be down in the pit on the high side.  Mr. Herrick said yes.  Mr. Young asked if the property line extends over the stone wall.  Mr. Herrick said his property extends from the Warner River to I-89.  Mr. Young said he was talking about going back toward Route 103.  Mr. Herrick said they would stay closer to Route 103 because there are two parcels and they are in the process of changing the access to nearer to I-89.  Mr. Young asked if that new road would be the access for this operation.  Mr. Herrick said yes.   

Mr. Holt asked if Mr. Herrick abuts I-89.  Mr. Herrick said yes.  Mr. Herrick showed a tax map of the area to the Board members and pointed out the different features in the area.  Mr. Holt asked how large the lot is.  Mr. Herrick said about 60 acres.  He added that 100 pieces would not start to fill up the area.   

Ms. Loz asked if it is junk machinery.  Mr. Herrick said no.  Ms. Loz asked if it’s intended for the use for which it was made.  Mr. Herrick said yes.   

Mr. Davies said on the questions Mr. Herrick said 4 to 6 auctions a year and on the front of the form, he said 6 to 8 auctions.  Mr. Herrick said that he had put the 8 down, thinking that if the economy were good, he might want to do as many.  He said that he doesn’t believe it’ll be much more than 6 a year.  He said if it were going now, there would have been probably one this year.   

Ms. Loz asked if there has been a decision as to whether this should be a variance or a special exception.  Ms. Thoits said no.  Ms. Loz said that that needs to be determined before deciding to approve or deny the application.  Mr. Davies asked if there could be public input before deciding what it will be.  He said that he sees it as hemming on Question A on the Special Exception application.  He said that a motion to deny it based on Question A could flush out whether or not it should be a special exception or a variance.  Ms. Thoits said that the public opinion can be heard, but we still have to come to the conclusion about whether it should be a special exception or a variance.  She said that before the application can be voted on, the decision needs to be made.  Mr. Davies asked if it would be two votes – one on whether it’s a special exception and then if it is, then a vote on whether to approve it.   

It was agreed by the Board that the public opinion should be heard first.  Ms. Thoits closed the meeting and opened the public hearing.  She asked if there were abutters wishing to speak.  She recognized Nancy Jewell.  Ms. Jewell said that she has several concerns about heavy equipment bringing in gasoline, oil, hydraulic fluid, diesel fluid, etc. leaks.  She asked if an environmental impact study will be required.  She commented that once something is contaminated, it is contaminated.  She added that heavy equipment is heavy, so it might have an impact on the roadbed.  She asked if Mr. Herrick is facilitating the auction himself or if he is bringing somebody in and someone else will actually facilitate the auction and just use Mr. Herrick’s land.  Mr. Herrick replied that there would be an auctioneer, who would orchestrate the auction.  He said they would have a mobile sales office that would come in during the auction sale and then would be removed when it was over.  He said that he’s made it clear to the individual that he and his people and pieces that come in would have to be leak-free.  Ms. Jewell commented that there is no way to guarantee that.  She continued to say that it is her understanding, then, that it is Mr. Herrick’s land and his facility, but someone else is coming in to do the auction and do the business part of the auction.  Mr. Herrick said yes, in essence, they’re renting the property for 6 to 8 times a year.  Ms. Jewell said that the sale of bark mulch, firewood, etc. sounds like it could be a year-round business.  She asked if that will require a building.  Mr. Herrick said no, and it would not be a year-round business because it would begin in the spring.  Ms. Jewell said that the traffic, then, would be primarily in the spring, summer and fall, when the traffic is normally accelerated, anyway, so he would be adding more traffic to that area.  Mr. Herrick said not a great deal.  Ms. Jewell said that she thinks that one thing that needs to be considered is the intersection of Routes 127 and 103 and how sharp that corner is for big equipment in the traffic on 103.  She commented that one of the buses couldn’t make the corner and had to stop and back up to make that left-hand turn, leaving a blind area for the traffic going east and west on 103.  Mr. Tierney commented that the traffic for this operation, by and large, would be coming off of I-89 and would not be heading east on 103 beyond the access to the property.  He said that the traffic for the auction operation would be a lot of the same type of traffic that is already there as part of the gravel operation.  

Ms. Thoits recognized Harold French, an abutter.  He said that he is an auctioneer and he has conducted this type of sale.  He said that he came to say that this is really a very low impact on the community to conduct these types of sales.  He said that his experience is that it does not add a great burden to the area to have them, so he said he would be in favor of Mr. Herrick having these auctions.   

Ms. Thoits recognized Dick Mueller, an abutter.  He said that most of his concerns have to do with various forms of pollution.  In particular, he asked about light pollution and how many 24-hour lights or street lights would be on the property.  He also asked about the various fluids leaking out of vehicles.  Finally, he asked about noise of the auction, although, he said he was assuming that the auction is through a loud speaker that is doable.  He said he also was concerned that it is abutting the Warner River .  Mr. Herrick said that right now there are no lights on the property and the auction would probably start around 9:00 and should be over before 5:00 .  He said the gate will be locked going into the operation at 5:00 and the hours of the equipment coming and going would have to be set up so they could not be there at 5:30 in the morning.  He said that maybe 7:00 would be the time frame.  He said during the auction, there would be a potential for a speaker, but other than that, he said it would be sort of like the flea market on Sundays, where it would be one day during the week.   

Ms. Thoits asked if he is quite a way from the river.  Mr. Herrick said yes, it’s several hundred feet away from the river.   

Ms. Thoits recognized Walter Moyer, an abutter.  He said he is concerned about the parking and the river pollution.  Mr. Herrick said that he will have quite a bit of control over the firm that will be doing the auctions and he is concerned about the pollution, too.  He said the auctioneer acquires the equipment and he said that he has a heavy handle on what is allowed to be brought in.  He said that he’s made it very clear that he doesn’t want any oil leakers or any junk brought in.  He said it’s got to be runnable equipment.  Ms. Thoits asked if it would be brought in on a truck.  Mr. Herrick said yes, but some could be driven in.  He said that they are also making it clear that the equipment is to go back towards the interstate and not back towards Contoocook or up 127.  He said there could be the occasional person who comes from Franklin, Webster, or Salisbury who might have to go home up 127.  

Ms. Thoits recognized Ms. Jewell.  She said that it needs to be understood that this is a two-part thing – number one, we’re talking potential auctions and then we’re talking about a retail facility.  She said that the noise of the diesel trucks to move the equipment will be present and she added that people will be starting up some of the heavy equipment to be sure it runs.  She said that is noisy.  She said she was sure that the bus company said they would use 89, but the buses go by her house everyday both ways because they get gas in Contoocook, so they don’t use that 89 exit.  Mr. Herrick said that the buses fuel up at H. R. Clough in Contoocook.  He said there will not be re-fueling situations with his plans.  He said they come in, they get bought and they leave and go back onto 89.   

Ms. Thoits recognized Mr. French.  He said that these types of auctions are most normally held in gravel pits or sand pits because they lend themselves to the type of facility needed to sell this type of equipment.  He said that he’s been to a lot of them and he has conducted a few of them.  He said he’s never seen or heard from any other auctioneers that there was any significant ground contamination from an ongoing process.   

Ms. Thoits asked if anyone else wished to speak.  There was no one.  She then closed the public hearing and re-opened the meeting.   

Mr. Davies asked if there was going to be the discussion of a special exception versus a variance right now, because it determines which direction we take.  Ms. Thoits agreed and said that if it is determined that it should be a variance, then we will need to deny this application and Mr. Herrick will need to come back for a variance.   

Mr. Davies MOVED to declare this application a special exception that is not on the schedule and does not fit the one that is a junkyard, so a variance will be needed for the items.  There was no second.  

Ms. Loz said that there is a definition of junkyard in the state RSAs.  She said RSA 236:112 on page 228.  She read, “’Junk yard’ means a place used for storing and keeping, or storing and selling, trading, or otherwise transferring old or scrap . . .”  She said it goes on to discuss the different types of scrap or wrecked vehicles.  She said that in essence, it’s non-operable material.  She said that the equipment being discussed is clearly operable material.  She said that she thinks that this does not fall within the definition of junkyard.  She said that she thinks that Number 16 does not apply.   

Mr. Davies said that was his motion to not accept it as a special exception since there is no item on the use table that is consistent with the request.  Ms. Loz said that she thinks that Number 6 fits it.  Ms. Thoits said that it says new and used and this is clearly used and Number 6 is the one that applies and that means that he needs a variance.  Ms. Loz asked if Mr. Davies wanted to either approve or disapprove this special exception based on Number 16.  Mr. Davies said no.  He said he wanted to not accept it as a special exception situation because it is not on the use table.  He said that the board went out of their way to get input as to they were thinking the right way, but he said his motion is to not accept it as a special exception since it is not listed anywhere as a special exception.  Ms. Thoits and Ms. Loz said they agreed.  Mr. Young said that the problem with Number 16 is that it states motor vehicle, machinery or other junkyard.  He said if you take junkyard out of it, then motor vehicle and machinery, it means that it’s allowed to be on that site.  But, he said, it does not talk about sales.  Ms. Thoits said she agreed and that is why she thinks that Number 6 applies.  Mr. Young said that at least under Number 6 you have the word selling and then stipulations could be laid out with that as just selling one day at a time or a one-day auction.  Ms. Thoits said that the trouble is that when the Zoning was passed, they talked about aircraft, boats, motorcycles, but they don’t talk about heavy equipment.  She said that sometimes we need to be careful because we need to make it so it covers everything.  She said that it doesn’t specifically say heavy equipment, but neither does Number 16.  Mr. Davies said that the RSA does refer to a “machinery junk yard,” so there are different types of junkyards.  He said that his opinion is that the whole of Number 16 is that it’s a junkyard as defined in the RSA and as defined elsewhere in the Ordinance.  Mr. Young agreed that it referred to junkyards.  Ms. Thoits agreed and said that she does not think that this is a junkyard.   

Ms. Thoits asked if there were a second for Mr. Davies’ motion.  Ms. Loz asked to hear the motion again.  Ms. Lightfoot read the motion:  Mr. Davies MOVES to not accept the application as the request is not anywhere on the table as a Special Exception.  There was discussion about the wording of the motion.  Mr. Young said that it may not be doing the applicant any favor by accepting it under Number 16 because we would be giving him permission to have a junkyard and he definitely states that he is not planning a junkyard.  Ms. Thoits said that she thinks he needs to be here under Number 6, which would be a variance.  She said if it had come in as a variance, then a decision could have been made on it tonight.  She said that she thought it was suggested to Mr. Herrick that it be requested as a variance.  Mr. Herrick said that Ms. Lightfoot had called his wife.  He said that when he first came in and was going over it, Number 6 didn’t seem to apply because it didn’t mention heavy equipment or machinery.  He said that’s why they focused on Number 16 because it talked about machinery, even though it says junkyard.  The intent was never to be a junkyard.  Ms. Thoits said that possibly Number 16 is poorly worded, as well, but she said she interprets it to mean junkyard and that does not give permission to sell the machinery.  Mr. Tierney said that the state may define a junkyard in the RSA for the purpose of the state regulations in RSA 236; the town may define a junkyard more broadly than is found in 236 of the state regulations.  He said that a junkyard could be defined to more than just the junked vehicles, to be that sale of parts and sale of inoperable vehicles that came in and now are operable when they’re going out.  He said that whether the Town of Henniker ’s zoning ordinance can be interpreted to include the sale of used vehicle or used heavy machinery is for the board to determine.  But, he continued, the board is not limited to the definition in the RSAs.  Mr. French corrected Mr. Tierney that we are in Warner.  Mr. Young said that it may be required to re-write that ordinance because it definitely stipulates what a junkyard is and where it may be.  Mr. Herrick asked if he went back to Number 6 and went for a variance, would he have to re-write the sentence to include machinery.  He asked if Number 6 would really have to have the word machinery in it to apply to this situation.  Ms. Thoits said that can’t be changed without the town voting on it.  Mr. Herrick said that that doesn’t necessarily fit where Number 16 does where machinery is mentioned.  Ms. Thoits said that the word sell can’t be added, either, without the town voting on it.  Mr. Davies said that rather than trying to find something on the table that specifically applies to him, a variance, by definition, is something that is not anywhere in the ordinance.  He said that there is nothing listed specifically for auctions of heavy equipment, so therefore he needs a variance since there is no mention of it in the table.  He said a variance is something that is not listed.  He said that Mr. Herrick does not need to try to find something that he can dovetail into a variance, since by the nature of the definition of a variance; the auctions of heavy equipment require a variance.  He said that it does not have to dovetail into any of the particular line items.  Ms. Thoits agreed.  Mr. Herrick said that he is concerned that at another meeting he could come to the same stalemate with the verbiage.  Ms. Thoits said that he will not.  She said that she believes that the board is in agreement that he needs a variance.  She added that there hasn’t been a vote yet, but if it is voted on and agreed, then Mr. Herrick can come back with his same information, changing the words special exception to variance, and then the board will deal with it.  Mr. Herrick asked if the problem is that the application was for a special exception and not a variance.  Ms. Thoits said yes, it is not a special exception.  She said it has to clearly have an S on the use table and, neither Number 6 nor Number 16 really 100% applies.  She said that she and Ms. Loz, anyway, believe that Number 16 does not apply and that he needs a variance.  She said that his reasoning and all the written argument is fine, except for the words, special exception.   

Mr. Davies asked to rescind his motion and move that a variance is required for this situation and not a special exception.  Ms. Thoits said that she thinks that because the application was accepted and all the information was taken, then it needs to be denied and in the denial say because we feel he needs a variance.  She said that by going through the public hearing, the application was accepted.  Mr. Davies asked to withdraw his original motion.  Ms. Thoits said there was never a second, so there is no need to withdraw it.   

Ms. Loz asked what the last motion was.  Mr. Davies said that his motion would be that a variance is required for the requested operation.  Ms. Loz said that first we have to decide on the special exception.  Ms. Thoits said she thinks the application has to be denied, but with the statement that it is felt that he needs a variance.  Then, she said, Mr. Herrick will have this denied and he will come back with a variance application.  Mr. Young said that he thinks it is correct to state that Number 16 does not cover what he needs because of the ability to sell.  He added that if Mr. Herrick comes back for a variance, it is important for the board to visit the site to understand the area.  He said that the site is a gravel pit and has one side where the high water might be and Mr. Herrick is not going to use that area.  He said it would also show where he should or should not store other retail items such as bark mulch.  Ms. Thoits asked if Mr. Young was suggesting that a site visit by the board should be done if and when Mr. Herrick comes back for a variance.  Mr. Young said yes.  

Mr. Young mentioned that Mr. Herrick is in the process of building a new road to access the site and that he thinks that will be used for the auctions.  Mr. Herrick said it is in process, so it could take as much as six months.  Mr. Young said that the new road takes it up very close to the exit off of 89.   

Ms. Thoits agreed that a site visit will be conducted if and when a request for a variance comes in.   

Mr. Davies MOVED to deny the special exception since item A on the special exception form requests identification in the ordinance which does not pertain to the request on the application and that the board feels that a variance is appropriate.   

Ms. Lightfoot read the motion:  “Motion to deny the special exception since item A on the special exception form requests identification of the ordinance which does not apply and is not identified in the ordinance and the board feels that a variance is appropriate.”  Mr. Holt seconded.  

Ms. Thoits asked if there were any discussion.  Mr. Young asked if we are listing the item under which we found it unacceptable.  Mr. Davies said that we didn’t find it on the table, without being specific on which place.   

Ms. Thoits summarized the motion by saying that a yes vote will deny the special exception, stating that there is nothing in the ordinance that applies to what he is asking for and that the board feels that he needs a variance.  The vote was taken.  The motion was PASSED unanimously.  

Ms. Thoits told Mr. Herrick that the deadline for getting on the September agenda is a week from Monday.  Mr. Davies suggested that Mr. Herrick bring in a sketch of what is proposed with the access.  Ms. Loz agreed and said it would be helpful to have a sketch showing where it is relative to the Warner River , with an exact measurement from the river, whether it’s 100 feet or 200 feet or whatever measurement.  Mr. Davies asked if a variance were approved if the Planning Board would have to act on it as well.  Ms. Thoits said that she believes that he would need a site plan review from the Planning Board.  Mr. Young added that by selling different materials on the site as well, would require a site plan.  Mr. French asked if the Zoning Board would be hearing the variance.  Ms. Thoits said yes.  Mr. French said that the board already has the abutters’ input.  Ms. Lightfoot said the notices would go out again by certified mail to everyone on the variance.   

Ms. Jewell asked what the criteria were for notifying abutters.  Ms. Lightfoot said that anyone within 200 feet from the property line, whether they actually touch the line or not, is notified.   

2.  MINUTES  

Ms. Thoits asked for consideration of the July 16, 2008 minutes.  Ms. Loz MOVED to approve the July 16, 2008 minutes.  Mr. Holt seconded.  The motion was PASSED unanimously.  

3.  COMMUNICATIONS AND MISCELLANEOUS  

Ms. Thoits said there is a reminder for the fall training on Saturday, October 25.  She said if any members want to go they should see Ms. Lightfoot.  Ms. Loz asked who is sponsoring it.   Ms. Thoits said it is OEP.  Ms. Loz noted that there are two in October.  Ms. Thoits said that the OEP has two training sessions – one in the spring and one in the fall.  She said this is the fall one.  There was discussion about the value of these sessions.   

Mr. Davies said that the front page on the application forms that we changed a few months ago seems to be a little rough for the applicants filling things out.  He suggested changing a couple of things – for instance, the lot number line may be too short.  Also, he suggested giving more room for the address, by making it two lines.  Ms. Thoits said that she would appreciate having the case number put at the top of the form.  Ms. Lightfoot said she will add these corrections.   

Mr. Davies asked about actually walking on a site.  He said that on a previous case, he didn’t think it was necessary to take the whole board out, and he did not have permission to walk it – he asked if it were possible to put a box on the form to check to allow members to walk on the site.  He wondered if that is getting a little too dicey.  Mr. Young said there is a problem with that.  Mr. Holt said that he went on Mr. Herrick’s site today.  Ms. Loz said she drives by the places.  There was discussion about the issue.  Ms. Thoits said that if the board members feel it is important to look at a site, she thinks it is best if a site walk is done and keep minutes because of the right-to-know.  She said if a member believes when a variance request comes in that a site walk is needed, then a motion needs to be made and we will do a site walk.  Ms. Thoits said that if someone were to go to a site on their own and ask permission to see it, they do need to let the applicant know that they are a member of the Zoning Board because they would have the right to refuse if they knew you were on the Zoning Board.  She added that she does not think it’s acceptable for a member to go visit a site on their own.  Mr. Young said that it has created problems in the past when members of the Planning Board went on their own to see a site, so he said he thinks it’s not a good idea.   

Mr. Young said that he raised the issue for the application for tonight because Mr. Herrick is going to build a new road to the site and it might make a difference.  Ms. Thoits said that Dennis Barnard has to recuse himself from the case because he is an auctioneer and Mr. Herrick is his friend.  Mr. Davies said this was brought up in the workshops in Manchester , saying that in small towns you have to be a little more aggressive when saying it really doesn’t apply to you.  He said if you’re an employee, then it is another thing.  Ms. Loz said if you have a financial or some other benefit to gain, then you must recuse yourself.  Ms. Thoits agreed that in a small town you know everyone, and you don’t use just knowing someone as a reason to recuse yourself.   

Mr. Davies asked if the board wanted to change the form any right now.  Ms. Thoits said we would think about it.   

Mr. Davies MOVED to adjourn.  Mr. Young seconded.  The motion was PASSED unanimously.  The meeting was adjourned at 8:15 p.m.